Something I wrote on Tumblr a little while ago. I tend to get frustrated with both sides of the argument when it invisibilize a category of individuals or another (oh noes I must be appropriating my own self as a trans* therianthrope!1!). I usually don’t involve much in debates, among other reasons because I do not have a lot of spoons.

Regarding my privileges/disprivileges, I’m speaking as a therian, mid-class, neuroAtypical + mentally ill (moderate to severe anxiety disorder with bouts of depression), white, pansexual-read-as-gay, post-T/post-op transman living with the wrong names on most of my paper IDs since pretty much 5 or 6 years (I also have an atypical body and people have tagged me as underweight or having an eating disorder when it’s not the case). English isn’t my native language.

The parallel exists though not perfectly symetrical. But people get obsessed about a hierarchy of oppression and forget something very important.

The problem: as someone who is both nonhuman and trans, I am under the impression that so much of this debate seems to be hapenning between people who are either trans, or otherkin - and rarely people who are both and compare the experience. There is, in the end, very little personal accounts of “here is how I personally experience it, both situations”. There mostly is theorizing and arguing.

And if these folks make comparisons, so be it. For some of us, being trans and being non-human do not compare much. For some others among us, it feels very much the same. So what. Share your personal experience, remember they’re that, personal

But all of you people who are not both trans and otherkin, be extra careful when attempting to draw parallels, because if you haven’t experienced both first hand then you’re simply not legitimate if you start making assumptions about how close or different the two things are. I’ve seen instances of instrumentalization or silencing towards a category of individuals (which one, it depends on the point you’re arguing).

People, just let it go. I know Tumblr is a very public space and that social justice is Serious Business(tm) here, but seriously; I’d rather spend my energy writing experiential or other personal blurbs, or help build resources or network people and whatnot, instead of wasting my time on debates that have no real outcome other than “being right” and winning points. I’m sure it would be beneficial if more people took the direction of “less arguing, more writing” or anything other than the toxicity that is so common around.

And, regarding everything you see on Tumblr and feel the need to argue about: does it really matter? You don’t have to fight all the battles.

swanblood:

This is something I noticed for some time, and, it’s really started to annoy me and I want to call it out. But, I’m not trans*, so, if this is not my place in some way, or I get something wrong, please, let me know!

I am just very tired of people arguing against otherkin with the argument, “Being transgender is different, because brain scans have proved that trans* people have different brains.” As well as the problem to otherkin, people think this is supporting trans* people, but it’s not. It’s actually the opposite.

When you say this, you say that you don’t support trans* people because of their identities. Their identities mean nothing to you. You support trans* people because of their bodies. Because, in some way, the body says that they are that gender. The brain is part of the body, so, saying that “I accept this person as a woman because they have a ‘woman’s brain’”, is not very different from saying “I accept this person as a woman because they have a vagina”… it’s just moving it to a different part of the body, that needs to exist to “prove” that the person is biologically female in some way.

This is anti-trans*, because you are saying that how the person thinks of their self doesn’t matter. How the person experiences their self doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is whether there is scientific evidence, or, another way of saying it, their body “matches their gender” in some way. That is cissexism, because it is the belief that gender has to match the physical body in some way to be “valid” and “real”.

This is anti-trans*, because, what if future evidence shows that the studies have flaws? What if we discover a group of trans* people who don’t have a “different brain type” that shows on a scan? (The studies I can see all talk about binary identifying people. Do non-binary trans* people have different brains? If they don’t, do the people who say this think non-binary trans* people are “valid” and “real”?) What if some trans* people show on brain scans and some don’t? The second people, are they “not real”?

To avoid these problems, and to respect trans* people, I believe the only way to do it is to accept people for their identities. Not because “their brains are different”. Not because medical science shows a proof (they were not trans* people before people scanned their brains?) But because they experience being trans*. Because, anything else has a risk of erasing some people who do identify as trans*, because they don’t match the science, and also, because it is not respectful to ignore the experiences that a person is telling you, and say, “I will only believe it when I see medical evidence”.

You think you are “just” doing this to otherkin, but, in a way, when you use this argument you are doing it to trans* people, too. You are saying, “I only believe you because someone who is not you gives you an official right to exist”.

To everyone who uses this argument, I want to ask: if new evidence appears tomorrow that proves all those brain studies are wrong, do you still support trans* people?

If you say “no”, then you don’t really support trans* people, not matter what you say.

If you say “yes”, then, your argument that you support trans* people “because their brains are different” is hypocrisy, and you’re just using it because you don’t have a better way to say, “I think trans* people are valid because that sounds like it makes sense to my brain, but otherkin are not valid because that doesn’t sound like it makes sense”. And you know that’s a bad argument, so you’re covering it up with “but trans* people have SCIENCE on their sides!” But, that doesn’t help trans* people at all, because, it’s not the right reason to support them.

So please, stop using that argument. The reason to support people’s identities is not “because science says there’s a difference”. The reason to support people’s identities is “because they identify that way”. And the time to support their identities is before science says anything… because, a long time before people ever think “we should do a study about this!”, people are struggling to have their identities accepted. And if you really believe that argument, you are just proving, you’re the kind of person who would not have supported trans* people then, when they were most vulnerable. You only were ready to support when the rest of society gives you a way to do it, without looking so “strange”.

And, that is not really support at all.

Though this wasn’t written by a trans* person, I do think that it’s incredibly accurate, and I think it’s something everyone needs to look at.  

And for the record, for all of you people who think you’re being trans* allies by making posts like the ones addressed, about how you can “prove” we’re trans—you’re terrible allies.  This post is how you be an ally; you respect people and their identities because it’s their identity and because it’s decent, not because research says you have to.  (And if you’re trans* and making that argument, well.  It’s not impossible for trans* people to be cissexist, y’know.)

-Amara

youarenotyou:

swanblood:

suncalf:

candybutthole:

doctorsheldoncooperforthewin:

i don’t have to understand it. i can think it’s weird. i can not think it’s valid. i can do allll of those things.

respecting otherkin individuals is not about approving of and accepting them as totally in your paradigm.

no one is asking you to do that. i’ve never seen an otherkin ask someone to do that.

i’ve seen a lot of SJW blogs claim that it happens, but it’s usually in the midst of jokes about raping otherkin to cure them and ‘i hope it’s illegal to fuck an otherkin’ (quoted bit by unknowablewoman, a Fat Activist hero who is actually a bigoted piece of shit. tired of people with this much bigotry being heralded as feminist heroes.) and harrassing otherkin for existing, telling them to go kill themselves.

what we’re asking (demanding) for you to do is respect them as individuals. think ‘um, okay’ and dont’ comment on it. don’t harrass them about it. just say ‘okay, good for you.’

this really isn’t asking too much at all.

lol except that I can call them out on their bullshit because they say terrible hurtful things about phantom limbs and transgenders ???

if a member of any community says something that is hurtful and appropriative and just generally bad then yes, call them out on it. but call that person out, don’t act like that one person is the representative of an entire group of people. because, well, they’re not. what the heck. 

honestly, i’ve seen a lot of discussion within the otherkin community on the subject of, for instance, “phantom limbs” - whether it is appropriative, whether a different term needs to be used (and different ones, such as “invisible limb” and “other-limb” are also being used now), and whether is it a case of - i can’t remember the term, but it starts with s? darn. anyway, it’s about people who feel what seems to be phantom limb pain where there is not only no limb, but no limb ever was. can’t remember the word though.

but it is not simply a case of every single person in the community blindly accepting a term that could be appropriative and applying it to themselves. some do. not all. some do not know better, and only need to realise that a term is appropriative or cruel to stop using it. it’s a mixed bag. i myself have never had any sort of phantom limb sensation - i’ve never lost a limb, nor felt anything monster-related - and so it’s not my place to comment on this, and i am sorry if i have said anything wrong. but i’m sure that some nonhuman-IDing folk have lost limbs before - i’ve heard of one, at least, and that one said that the feelings were similar in their case. not a case study exactly, of course, but still. 

once again, yeah, there are problems in the nonhuman community. there are problems in every community. and you are more than welcome to call someone out on that if you see them being hurtful and appropriative. but those are, for the most part, not problems that every single person in the community has. many people within the community also call out each other on matters of appropriation and similar.

and deer gods, why does this have to be said, but be polite and courteous if you are going to call someone else out if at all possible, and with any luck they will return the favour and be more likely to listen to what you are saying. this is directed towards everyone. be polite when possible. it will help.

also, the original post of this is very good, thank you.

Hmm, first… (all of this is to candybutthole and people who make similar points, not suncalf, you made a wonderful reply <3)… I don’t have a lot of faith in someone who starts talking about why we need to call otherkin out for these serious and important issues by saying “lol”… and second, “transgenders”? I think that one word is more problematic than anything I ever have heard otherkin say about phantom limbs.

Personally, I’m in pain. I’m in pain right now. It’s hard for me to walk. I have a birding trip in the end of January and I worry about whether I will be able to walk around well. Because I have pain, that started from a phantom pain in my wings and spread down my body. I have seen a doctor, I have seen a physical therapist. I am having blood tests. I’m not sure what is the cause, but it started with that pain.

So, some otherkin do experience the same kind of pain from a limb that is not there and was never there, that people can experience when a limb is removed. This also happens to non-otherkin, it’s called “supernumerary phantom limb” (that’s the word you meant, suncalf ^v^), so, saying “phantom limb” is only used for people with amputations, is wrong. In the medical language, our situation already exists and it is called, phantom limb, and it has been studied.

Honestly, this is what I think: I think the “otherkin are appropriating the language from amputees” is a concern trolling. I have only seen one actual amputee talk about this situation and whether it bothers them, and that person was otherkin also and was defending the use of the word. For everyone else, why are you taking the problem of what language amputees would want as your defense, without asking them if they actually are bothered by it? I think it’s because you simply want to have a way to make us be quiet: “think about the poor amputees!” You are using people’s experiences for your own benefit, without talking to them about it.

And, you are doing it because of a judgment you already make: the judgment that we are not serious. I think that if a human identifying person said that they experience a supernumerary phantom limb, and they have pain from it, there would be no complaining at all. But, because we have a strange identity, the fact is, you don’t believe us. And, all of this is simply because you think it is not possible that we experience this.

But the fact is, some of us do.

So, what is your argument now, about how we are saying terrible hurtful things? What have we done, except to describe an experience? And, is it you who has done the hurtful thing, of assuming that we are ridiculous, judging us, and saying our experiences are imagined?

And, yes, I definitely think otherkin should be called out if we do something appropriative, like anyone else. I also think that a lot of the reasons otherkin are called appropriative, is because we are using serious words to describe our experiences, and people believe our experiences are not serious and believe that what we are doing is making fun of the people with “real, serious” experiences. But, definitely, if it’s not about that: yes, sometimes otherkin need to be called out like anyone.

Just, make sure you are not calling us out just because we are otherkin and you don’t believe us.

bolded for emphasis.

people are just looking for an excuse to make fun of those they think are weird/different. but a call out isn’t an excuse to bully someone. 

and it’s not a “call out” to tell someone “i don’t believe you, and your identity is stupid.” it’s being cruel.

Bolded and italized one part, because for the love of all that is good in this world please do not refer to trans* people as transgenders >.< Just no, don’t ever do that okay. Also by that comment I am guessing that the person who said that is not trans, so they may want to take a look at what trans* people have said on the subject matter before attacking otherkin in order to earn ally points ‘cause yanno some trans* people are okay with the comparison.

Oh and ya some of us belong to both groups and would really like to have people realize this. I’m not sure how my own identity can somehow automatically hurt my other identity, and I am getting rather annoyed with the cis people shouting about all otherkin hurting trans* people, when some trans* people like me and the other mods here are also otherkin.

-Haven

(via thenameoftheworms)

I’m so happy that you made this blog.  I get so irritated when people say that all otherkin are middle class/rich, white, straight, cis boys; that comparing transgenderism to being otherkin, when imo they’re slightly related.  Plus, they don’t recognize all the people who’re otherkin and trans.  So thank you.

Also, for the record. I’m a black transwomen lesbian faekin.

Glad to be of service. <3 I think, even as quiet as this blog has been, that it was a safe space that needed to happen, especially when it seemed like most of the people telling ‘kin not to compare being trans* to being ‘kin were cis.  We just wanted to help give a voice to ‘kin who were also trans*.

-Amara

thingsilearnedfrom:

ALL otherkin compare themselves to trans* people in every way, including exactly the same oppression.

Not even remotely true, to anyone who actually believes this, and if you’re following this blog and think this is what we’re doing, then you’re not paying enough attention. ;)

(For those that don’t know, the above blog runs on sarcasm.)

-Anshin

So one topic that was asked about was how being non-human can affect gender identity. For me this is a complicated topic mostly because my dysphoria has no real distinction so it can be hard for me to tell whether the dysphoria I am experiencing is based on gender of species.

One thing that is clear for me though it that I do not want breasts; as an avian, I would not have breasts in full bird form and in my my more fae form also, for avians there is no need for the body to have breasts; as someone who id’s as androgyne breasts make me uncomfortable in respect to how the are gendered and in general for me just do not belong on my body.

My Gender id and my non human-ness tend to work against each other you could say. My avian self wants long nails like claws, but I get dysphoria based on the comments people make about my nails that push me into the box labeled ‘women’. This is especially frustrating when in terms of gender I have no body dysphoria around my nails. Another problem I have is when things are tight against my back I sometimes feel weird because; “there are supposed to be wings there so how is something that tight fitting?” this can make wearing a sports bra, which is the closet thing I have to a binder, difficult.

I would say that in terms of interaction of identification itself for me isn’t a huge thing. I’m not sure why but for me I just am an androgyne corvid type fae.

As always I love to hear other’s thoughts on the matter.

-Haven